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perterra
92 Posts |
 Posted - 01/19/2010 : 09:26:36
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I wont get in to the Glock debate, lets just say you need to practice diligence regardless of the firearm you use.
From every military manual of the time when both were adopted I've read both the 1911 and the HP were designed to be carried hammer down on an empty chamber. As a military sidearm it stands to reason they were likely a secondary weapon. I think the manual for the 1911 http://www.sightm1911.com/manual/manual.htm states it on page 11. All that being said both guns have evolved over time into roles far different from original intent, in the hands of private citizens they have become self defense weapons and as training has changed cocked and locked has become a very viable way to carry both guns where it can be used. Yeruham I think maybe you guys require empty chambers?
I carry both a 1911 and a Hi Power at different times (depends on how I feel, how the stars and planets align, that sort of stuff). In my experience as a citizen toting these handguns I have never had an issue with the 1911 safety disengaging accidently; it has a nice detent that clicks when it drops off and takes a small amount of effort. I've never had an issue with a safety disengaging on a stock HP safety, takes less effort to disengage but it's smaller than a 1911 and doesnt readily disengage. But I have had issues with a hot rodded HP with a Bianchi 100 IWB holster going off safe. This HP has a larger thumb safety that was added by Wickmann back when he was still around. It is a cutdown original safety with the thumbshelf of a 1911 welded on to it. Takes the same amount of force to disengage as a factory safety but it seems the bigger thumb shelf bumps the skirt of the holster where it protects my love handles from the hammer and the longer shelf provides the leverage to effortlessly disengage the safety. It's never disengaged while in the holster, only the act of holstering effects it, it's never happened with a Galco royal guard holster without the flap, it's only an issue with the Bianchi 100.
So I would suggest if anyone changes holsters or style of carry to make sure your new style isnt going to effect your handgun safety. With this particular HP I slide my thumb under the safety and hold it up when reholstering. I dont need to do it with a factory safety nor do I need to with a 1911, but I shoot a high hand grip and the larger safety is so much easier for me to index that I think the trade off is well worth it. |
Edited by - perterra on 01/19/2010 09:28:39 |
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yeruham
Israel
223 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2010 : 13:46:04
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Dear Mr Perterra
Thank you for your informative and interesting post. I must apologize but your question to me is the sort of question which I don't want to answer on an open forum which anyone, friend or enemy, can read. We had a debate on this matter when I was new to the forums. I think the title of the thread was "A disturbing question". Since them I have sometime slid into being lax, but I try to be strict about this. It is a shame that I have to be strict about these things because I am sure that almost all of you are honest LEOs and military men and other good people from friendly countries. As I have written in the past, however, if any of you can make it to Israel I will be delighted to take you to holy, historical and scenic places, introduce you to fighting friends and sit down over beer, whisky or whatever your favourite poison is and chat freely. Just let me know well in advance because I am usually out of the country for at least a month every year. Very best wishes to all,
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Yeruham |
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perterra
92 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2010 : 15:56:13
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| Not a problem at all and thank you for the invite. |
Edited by - perterra on 01/21/2010 15:56:35 |
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OIF2
167 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2010 : 21:38:26
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Great thread; hopefully, it's not too old to respond to. Here's my thoughts on this subject. While I think that "condition one" is the way to go most of the time, there IS a place for "condition two". While I was in Iraq (all of 2004) I was a CA Team Ldr who regularly met with the locals to listen to their complaints and requests. I had a nice Iraqi Hi Power that I had confiscated from a haji gentleman during the 2nd month of my tour. When I re-located to An Najaf about half-way through my tour, I took the P35 with me; it allowed me to loan my Beretta M9 to one of my SAW gunners. I daily met with the Provincial Governor at his residence, usually with State Dept people and their bodyguards. Most of the time, I was in the Gov's Palace without a rifle or body armor, but I still liked to be armed. My Hi Power filled the bill perfectly, tucked into my waistband butt-forward, condition 2. I am left-handed and this P35 was an older one with the tiny, right-handed safety. Access was quick, cocking was fairly fast (a fast-draw in my situation wasn't anticipated), and the pistol was easily concealed under my DCU shirt. It was with me daily, along with several magazines loaded with GI ball. On patrol it rode in a shoulder rig over my body armor, condition 2 also. Yes, somewhat dangerous, but so is being in a combat zone. Probably doesn't apply to stateside carry, but it worked overseas. I ended up trading it to a Blackwater employee for a .45. Different situations call for different solutions; I was comfortable with mine.
Bob |
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Old_Romad
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 00:53:55
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I would like to add something I haven't seem here that affects carry quite a bit. I usually carry (BHP or J-Frame) in a Smartcarry holster. Not for everyone but fits me well.
I HAVE seen 3 instances where a 1911 in Condition 1 went off, by either being in a bad choice of holster (which did not protect the safety) or in one case, of "something", probably a limb, impacting the safety and then the gun got jarred rather hard. Considering the millions of carryies with that gun and condition that have not had issues, it still is a good safe method. But... I am the guy the little black cloud hovers over! If the is one tripping hazard in a hundred square miles, I WILL fall over it! My wife claims I can trip over a sunbeam! The HP safety is lighter, and comes off safe with FAR less effort that the 1911. Even with large ambi type safeties, it is still way too easy. Due to the thin nature, I have yet to see a holster for it that would make me feel comfortable in condition 1.
Again, but... I recently installed Cylinder & Slide's Safety Fast Shooting System (made only for HP and 1911s) and found nirvana! When using this system, you do not engage the safety. In fact you can't. You replace the hammer assembly with theirs, the sear, slide release and safety with theirs. (safety with kit is their large ambi type) The new parts would make John B. proud! When you rack the slide and chamber a round, instead of putting the safety in the safe position, you simply PUSH the hammer FORWARD with your thumb. Maybe takes 2 ounces of force! When the hammer goes forward, the safety goes up and engages (firmly), and the slide, trigger and hammer are frozen in place. There is also a block that comes up (part of the new assembly) and blocks the firing pin from being struck if dropped, etc.. You can't do ANYTHING to the gun now! EXCEPT, push the safety down, and it is actually stronger than the original, and when you do, the hammer pops back and it is in a "fire" condition.
I see it as having a couple of advantages. One, it removes a lot of the brow sweat about "possible" discharge in condition 1. Another is that that block adds a safety feature against drops, and THAT has always been a problem with the HP, as even the original FN booklets warned about it. (pre-lawyer days! They expected YOU to watch it, not them)
Another very real set of what I see as advantages is that a huge amount of people, gun savvy or mostly not, all know what the venerable 1911 looks like, and usually how it works. You can only see so many movies before you start to notice such! Condition 1 is intimidating to non gun users. Period. I would guess that a huge percentage of concealed or open carry "complaints" to the police are because of what some left wing flapping, or genuine clueless citizen "thinks" is a dangerous GUN! AND IT'S COCKED AND LOOKING TO KILL ME!! Maybe the owner won't notice in time to stop it! Ohh!! The sky is....etc..
Anyway, the hammer is DOWN. It is LESS intimidating to the clueless. Yes, I know "we shouldn't care about THOSE people! Well, THOSE people are the ones that have US people hassled, arrested and sometimes convicted, for no reason other than their fears and imaginations! So, less fear of the "ready to attack" inanimate object. Another tangential point there, is that most of those movie watchers and partially "exposed to the menace" folks, all know the hammer has to be back in order to HURT THEM. So, my hammer is down, I must not be as ready as I think I am! Mr bad guy can take his time in taking out the idiot with the uncocked gun! Except that around a tenth of a second after my thumb hits the safety, a bullet hits him/her/them/it! (equal opportunity shooter, sorry) SUPRISE! Which is GOOD if it is on YOUR SIDE! Check out the video on C&S's website. It works better than they say!!
Also have the Goshen Ent. Hexsite installed and can work through combat target routines as well as tactical scenarios faster than when I was in my twenties! Both eyes open and targets almost magically appear in the correct sight zone! On some guns, I might not want these combos. On ANY HP I own, they WILL be there, both of them! In fact, I have gone to the Hexsight on everything of mine they can be installed on! They are literally a "force multiplier". I see so many folks talk bad about them, but it turns out none have tried or even seen them! I quit taking someones elses opinions as fact for choosing deadly weapons and accessories when I started walking!
Thanks for being here, I needed a place to talk about my "love"! (an older T model, that drives tacks at 25 yards!)
Paul (living in Exile in the Democratic Socialist Republik of Kalifornia) |
<url="http://www.k1jan.com"> <img>http://www.k1jan.com/pix/ROMADAvatar.jpg</img></url> |
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Burgs
561 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 01:17:40
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Old Romad,
Welcome to the Forum!
There have been a LOT of postings on SFS on this web site, so you'll be in good company here. The reasons that you've learned for yourself (you can add no hammer bite too)are many of the same arguments put forth my the other SFS proponents you'll encounter here.
I hope that you enjoy your time here on the forum. If you get a chance, could you post some photos of your Hi power with those sights? I think that'll be a first here.
Cordially, -Burgs |
Cordially, -Burgs |
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OIF2
167 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 09:29:23
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Good post, "Old Romad", and a good read.
Bob |
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Koda
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2010 : 21:34:40
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I'm sure it has been said but for my own edification I feel the need to repeat it...if you are not comfortable carrying a BHP Cocked and Locked then you sir might wish to consider another platform. I've had this argument with my father a time or two (old school Army, utterly sold on the concept of carrying the gun hammer down) and I constantly walk away frustrated.
It seems you already had your mind made up, maybe you were trolling. I note you asked for experts and certainly you could have googled instnaces of the safety disengaging while holstered or the wisdom behind drawing and cocking the hamme
No one ever makes a mistake until they do and usually its that guy who thinks he always has it right. If the rest of us are lucky the only person he embarrasses, maims, and/or kills is himself. |
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Tomb
USA
107 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 17:18:21
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| When I carry concealed you will never know how it's carried until it may be too late. The sheeple don't get to see what's not to be seen. |
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Taipan
11 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2010 : 22:32:34
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Because of where I'm from, I've been in three situations where my gun came out of the holster to defend my life. Fortunately, I didn't have to fire upon my would-be attackers. In at least two of the three events, I wouldn't have had the time to set the hammer back of anything. I was busy moving and communicating.
I guess my point is this: Carry the dammed thing as it was designed or get a different gun. The best and only acceptable safety is your finger conected to a well trained brain.
Stay safe out there.
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"Not everything that counts can be counted and not everything that can be counted counts" |
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Hammer Down Carry
